On Thursday the 16th July, an interesting debate was aroused amongst several screenwriters who tweet. These were Jason Arnopp, Piers Beckley, Michelle Lipton, Dean Lines, Andrea Gibbs, Lucy Vee and myself. I shall write this blog as a sort of compilation of all the comments that were made that day on twitter.
It all started when Jason made a humourous comment about the type of "wanted" ads you can find on the internet for screenwriters.
J - Just saw script co-writing ad, noting that "The writer would recieve [sic] a copy of the film". Christ, he'll be inundated. What an offer!
J - I love all these "Write a script for us - for free!" ads. There's no money, but you'll get a copy of the film and a full credit. Wowee.
I for one am on the lookout for work - voluntary or not, in order to gain some experience and some credits to my name, so I queried this.
Me - Some of us have to start somewhere, & if that means writing for free...
After all, not all of us have had success so far. And we've gotta start somewhere, right? But it soon became apparent that it wasn't necessarily the ads as a whole that are considered "bad", it's the ones that show no respect.
J - The main thing I object to, is the disrespect that comes across in their ads. As if writers should feel lucky to work with them!
J - Nothing to do with it being 'beneath' anyone. No, it's more about the ways in which ad-placers often undervalue writers.
J - These ads, with their offers of DVDs and full credits, are really undervaluing what we do.
A - A dvd is NOT enough. Trust me. Your credit is yours by right. It is not a nice plus. That alone would ring bells.
Me - I hear what you're saying...Some solid advice there.But a lot of film-makers out there are in a similar position career-wise & I can't help but understand where they're coming from. May have the means but no extra funding. I always thought of it as creatives collaborating to help each other out & gain experience, hence money not mattering. But I do see your point :)
[But, ultimately], I thought it was good to go for those lo/no pay gigs if it means experience/credits?
A - Speaking with [my] Writer's Guild hat on [I] wld advise anyone going into that kind of arrangement to think v carefully.
A - We've got something at Guild we're working on called Joint Venture Agreement. You're both risking, there's no payment. So you both own equal rights in script and in film. Agree that sometimes you have to accept less money to get going.
So how do we know when they're genuine? How do we know when to say "yes"? A lot of it must be risk-taking and placing trust and faith in the people you collaborate with.
P - If you know them? Sure. Otherwise write for a hundred quid. Write for a tenner. Option your script for a pound. But not for free.
J - Sure, write for free when the results are worth it. But value yourself, and make sure others value you.
A - Do your research. Who are they/ what have they done? And never ever give the rights to your work away for free.
J - [It also] depends on the collaborator. Research 'em, get a feel. Will this project even get made, 4 peanuts?
J - Respect is what it boils down to. I worked for free once, because I knew & liked the person, and our goals from it were similar.
So what about subject of payment?
J - I'd also only advise writing for free if u know producer/director well. If they have NO money to give writer, how serious are they?
M - I suspect you'd find in a lot of the sort of ads @JasonArnopp was referring to earlier, someone is making money at the end!
M - A good rule of thumb? If they're getting paid something, so should you be. It doesn't have to be a lot.
J - If a prod/director has NO money to give you, then it casts doubt on their seriousness re: the project.
M - Is it wrong to expect a profit share? Not really. Deferred payment is still payment.
J - We just must never undersell ourselves.
Michelle Lipton spoke of how the credits you will get through taking up these sorts of opportunities may not boost your career:
M - My question has always been: what do those credits mean in the real world? And maybe it depends on your ultimate goal.
M - If you want a career in the indie film sector maybe it's different. But most of these no-pay credits mean nothing to broadcasters.
This may be so, but won't they attract agents?
M - I guess they would show an agent you're hustling. But consider the Writer's Academy. The only criteria: you must have been PAID.
Piers Beckley thinks that you're better of doing things for yourself:
P - 99% of the time, you're better off working on your own spec. You'll also be paid nothing, but you'll own it.
Me - You mean produce it?
P - I was thinking more of selling it. But I'm a big fan of writer-producers, so that would work too.
However, Dean Lines and Lucy Vee had more positive things to say about writing for free:
Dean -
I have recently worked for "free" on a few things. One of which led to becoming a finalist in the virginmediascomp. Meaning said film will screen in 100's of cinemas in the uk. Another led to an actual commision (my first ever) and led to 20 min film for schools across the uk. Both started with complete strangers as an unknown writer responding to ads saying "can you work for free" I 100% understand [Jason Arnopp's] point about undervaluing writers.. but without responding to these requests I may have missed some decent opportunities.
I was/am in the same spot. Nobody who knows nobody... Hooked up with few talented filmmakers, worked for free on short film stuff and feel I have managed to create my first somewhat meanful (I hope) credits along with meaningful relationships with producers. [It's] worked so far...
Lucy -
"I will never understand the argument "never write for free", especially early on in your career when so few people will touch you with a barge pole... Obviously if you're being asked to do something for nothing and it's a BIG company, then obviously the answer is a big fat NO 'cos then they're taking advantage. But if you're getting together with people who are not being paid either and you're all learning, where the hell is the harm? You're making contacts, you're getting out there... So you've only got a 10% chance of it getting made and about a 0.5% of it not sucking ass, but hey: life is a learning curve and all that.
Sometimes later on in the scriptwriting path too you might be asked to write something for free - film funding is a bitch to get and creates a Catch 22: you can only get it with a script, but you have no money to pay the writer for development... blah blah blah. If you can trust that other person, and can agree everything in advance, again: where is the harm? Unless they're sitting in a mansion eating caviar whilst you're eating beans on a toast in your dive of a rat-infested bedsit, I'd say collaboration is the best option for the wannabe filmwriter!
There is one warning tho: never, ever allow them to suggest a credit is nothing other than yours BY RIGHT. If they act like they're the Good Guy giving it to you or you should be grateful, walk away. You can ALWAYS find someone else to work with."
Incredible, isn't it? How one comment on twitter by Mr Arnopp quaffing at the disrespect shown in ads for writers can lead to such an insightful and useful discussion on a theme that affects all of us.
Writing for Free - Are you for or against?
I agree with both sides of the argument, personally. I think it's great to collaborate and work on projects voluntarily if there is enough mutual respect and both/all parties benefit, be it from satisfaction of completing something, winning a competition or gaining profit. But the screenwriters who participated in this debate have brought up some very interesting points. You must research the people who advertise for writers. Don't just throw your time and effort away at the merest sign of interest. Make sure you trust and respect these people before agreeing to work for free and seek advice from The Writer's Guild if you feel uncomfortable about anything.
Above all, in the words of Mr Jason Arnopp, "value yourself, and make sure others value you."
EDIT: The debate on twitter also caused several other people to blog about this topic, so I think I shall list these blog entries below as and when they occur:
11 comments:
I should make it clear I don't disagree with Jason, Andrea, Writers' Guild etc here - Jason's absolutely right when he says you should value yourself and the work you do. Too many people look down on the writer. I remember one gig: "Don't worry, she's ONLY the writer," I overheard someone say when I raised serious questions about the integrity of what the director wanted to do. I quit the same day (that was paid by the way... And let's not forget Michelle women too are on a backfoot before they start, even if they are paid: some of the sexism around is outrageous. The media is a man's world alright. Luckily for me, I'm collaborating with some BRILLIANT men at the moment where my gender is not an issue, but I haven't always been so lucky... Of course, by saying that I'm sure I will be accused ofg being *touchy*, rest my case).
But there's always the point that writing in your bedroom and holding your precious spec tight to your chest in an attempt to "hold out" for money and creative control is not going to get you anywhere. I know lots of screenwriters who think the be-all and end-all of respect is money. In my experience, it's so not.
This "write for free" argument depends on context. And it's relatively easy to figure out:
Crappy worded ads where they act like you should be grateful to work with them and get a DVD/credit = bad.
An opportunity to get on board with someone, learn together, maybe produce something, maybe not, end up with a finished product where you have an agreement so everyone knows what's what and what we all get out of it IF any money is made and if none is, we still have great contacts we can exploit later = good. Where would I have been had I insisted to myself I need to be paid for SAFE? What about Danny's ORIGIN? Uber low filmmaker Phil Hobden's cult offerings LEFT FOR DEAD and TEN DEAD MEN?
Still in the spec pile, that's where.
What she said up above.
It's all about respect. Respect yourself as a writer. If we don't take ourselves seriously, nobody else will take us seriously.
As for the whole free/paid question, well of course we should all aspire to be paid, and paid well. But experience is valuable.
I've followed up on a few of those 'work for free' type ads. Some have been complete time-wasting shysters. Some have been well-meaning amateurs. Some have elicited useful long-term contacts. In all cases the experience has been valuable.
Just keep your common sense switched to overdrive and never be afraid to say "no".
Or, where appropriate, "Go stick your head up a horses' arse"
I think really it's up to the individual writer and obviously depends on the circumstances. But I think it's also worth pointing out that on a no-budget feature the producer and director and most of the crew won't be getting paid either. Usually what money there is will go into the things you have to pay for - props, food, practical effects etc. The fact is, there's just not the money for that many funded film projects around in this country, especially not at the moment.
Sometimes it's really a choice between working for free and getting a film produced, or not getting a film produced at all. You don't get paid in either scenario, but at least with the first one you get a film out of it - in the end that's what it's all about really.
With Ten Dead Men I was happy to work for free because I believed in the project and I got on really well with the director and producer. And that's really my only advice - I'd suggest with any of these ads it's worth meeting the people involved and scoping out the project. If you think you can work with them and you're interested in the project then I think it's always worth a try.
Writers really need to get out of this mentality that they're the ones being duped, that they're the ones who are getting the hard end of the deal.
Don't get me wrong, on my first feature option I got COMPLETELY SCREWED, and I am only just just just being able to deal with it now; but that's life. It's the life of a writer, life of a director, life of a plumber, life of a cleaner. It's life.
In film, sometimes, you need to do things for free. Films have budgets. Sometimes that budget is ten million, sometimes that budget is fifty thousand, sometimes that budget is twenty pounds. There's no right or wrong budget, it's dependent on the project and who and what is behind it. It's your job, not as a writer, but as a professional-- to decide what you want to do.
If I'm a Producer; I can Produce for nothing, I can get a director to direct for nothing, and I can get a writer to write for nothing. But it's unlikely I can get three weeks camera rental for nothing, it's unlikely I can cater everyone for nothing. So, for example, if they want you to write for free on a £10,000 feature-film, maybe that's not so bad. Maybe your script is FUCKING AWFUL but with the great camera and director behind it they'll make you look AWESOME.
Or you could haggle with them for £200 just to 'be paid' and they end up going with another script. Don't get me wrong, I understand the principle, but you just need to think about what you're doing. There's no set amount anyone should be paid.
But don't look at it as 'us' versus 'them' -- as if anyone wanting a script for DVD only is evil, because you really don't know them, you really don't know the details of their production. They can pay you zero and shoot a feature, or you can pay yourself zero and keep the script locked in the draw. It's your choice.
Of course, I want to get paid - you need to get paid. And we will be paid when the money is there. When the script is good enough. When the right person reads it.
Despite all that I say-- I advise you all, strongly, to be very careful with where you give your script. Nothing hurts more than seeing your baby get completely raped by a producer or filmmaker, especially when you get no money for it.
But at the same time, have a little faith - a lot of people just want to make a film. Help them. Give them a script.
I have no problem with writing for free, because it is something I enjoy and I would probably be doing it anyway even if there wasn't someone looking for a script. But I am not so happy-go-lucky about giving away my rights and all.
I get the whole "you will get a copy of the film and a credit" thing because that is what I say to actors and other contributors on my productions, simply because there is no money and really, there is nothing much else that I CAN give them (besides food while working on my set). So I have no problem with that, and I know where they're coming from, if that's the situation they're in. If it's a big company, though, that says that, then they're just being cheapskates trying to con you. But I will write for free for a low/no-budget production if I feel like it is a project I am motivated in investing time and energy into. That hinges on who the director/crew is, and whether we can build mutual trust and respect.
I could say I would NEVER write for free, and then be left sitting at home with all these things that will never get made or seen or even read simply because no one is going to bother with me. If I write for free/for peanuts, at least my work is going to have the option of progressing to another level, and surely that can't be all bad? So as long as I get recognition and all that I really don't mind. After all, it's really harsh to say I will never write for free, then have productions where I expect my crew/cast to work for me for free.
I hope I make sense, I'm a bit fuzzy in the head at the moment.
Joanne Smedley commented on this very blog post over at the UKwriters networking site: http://ukwriters.ning.com/profiles/blogs/working-for-free-for-or#comments
Here's what she had to say:
I do and have worked for free, sometimes on purpose, sometimes because the "swines" then refuse to pay after I've done the work (though they don't get the product then...)
Depending on who you are doing the work for it can be very useful as an educational thing. See my blog on "An opportunity you might be missing" above yours. I write for free for a local camera club and basically get the script reviewed (for free) by some amateur directors, go to the read throughs, watch the filming, see what works what doesn't etc. It's all been SO useful (not that it has helped me get through the BBCwritersroom readers yet....).
My main learning thing however is not "will you write for free" or not - but NEVER spend money on anything. If someone asks you for money for this or that, the answer is always NO. I don't pay to enter competitions and I don't pay for any reviews etc. The only thing I do pay for is an editor to proof my work for typos and grammar before it gets sent anywhere as I can never proof my own work.
Hey Michelle - doing my monthly duck in and this is by far the most interesting thing on all the blogs right now! I think you've struck on a fascinating subject. At the end of the day, you have to start somewhere. I didn't get paid at all on the first four produced shorts I wrote but then they more than delivered for me in terms of raising my profile etc. within the industry. It's just a question of weighing up what you're going to get from doing something for free against the amount of effort/pain you need to put it in. It can sometimes be worth it - all a question of judgement! How good is the director? What will they do with the material? What will the film do after it's produced and how will that help your main aim which is, presumably, to be a full-time, reasonably paid and creatively fulfilled writer! Lots of luck - it will work out, I'm sure. Simon
Mina Zaher commented on this blogpost over at http://ukwriters.ning.com/profiles/blogs/working-for-free-for-or#comments
She said:
Very interesting debate. I have to say, I've written for free. And whilst it's good to get a copy of the film, it was more important that I still retained the rights to my script. I think this is the important issue. There are quite a few sharks out there and if you don't get paid for the script, I think the least you can maintain is control over the rights of your script.
Acting schools are another way to get your script read. My short film, a 19 min. psychological thriller, was the result of a final year's acting students showreel.
Okay those ads at the very beginning of your post look VERY sketchy and here's why. If this was legit and the guy was just trying to find funding he'd have a huge problem. In order to get funding he has to solicit investors. To do that he has to show them a production budget. The production budget includes a category for screenwriting. If that category is blank, then he's got some explaining to do to his investor. If he puts in a number under screenplay and has no intention of paying you the money, then he's in real trouble because that's fraud.
The guys behind those ads are either
A) real amateurs trying to put together "friends and family" but can't come up with their own material
B) real amateurs who have no idea what they're doing
C) somebody who's not legit at all
Very little chance that any of these people will actually produce should you agree to their terms.
What you want to look for is either a "No money option." A lot of my friends have these. They are projects where the writer's fee is in escrow until the production is fully funded or ready to shoot.
The other job that's legit is "work for hire" where you are paid to write but the client maintains all ownership to the material and in most cases the credit. Believe or not paid uncredited work helps your career a great deal. It leads to more ghostwriting and work for hire jobs and can lead eventually to script doctoring jobs which are the most sought after in the entire business.
So don't go chasing after every wisp of smoke. You have to find people who are as serious about the craft and business as you are.
Mike Lee
Screenwriting Foxhole
Thank you all for sharing your opinions on this subject! Some really interesting points have been raised and some excellent advice has been given. Here's what Dan Guardino had to say over at the UKwriters group:
"I don’t see anything wrong with a bunch people getting together and shooting a film to show people as long as everyone is donating their time as well.
I don’t agree it is okay for a producer to ask a screenwriter to write a screenplay for free. They know a lot of screenwriters just want to get their foot in the door and they take advantage of that... happens all the time and a legitimate producer wouldn’t do that. If a producer asks a screenwriter to work for free the odds are pretty darn good that producer will never be able to raise the money to make the film anyway so working with them would be a complete waste of time.
Another way some producers take advantage of screenwriters is by optioning the rights to the screenwriter’s screenplay with no money down. If a producer won’t give a screenwriter a reasonable amount of option money the screenwriter should nevr give the producer an option. Again, if the producer isn’t willing to pay the writer anything the odds are pretty good they aren’t legit and will never be able to make the movie.
Screenwriters writing spec screenplays really should be using them to meet the kind of people that can help them launch their careers. Struggling producers that don’t have a track record aren’t going to be able to help you launch your career. Personally I only send my scripts to people that are already very successful because in this business you're only as successful as the people you work with.
Good luck everyone and keep on writing.
Dan"
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